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专访Prophet资深合伙人唐锐涛:一个老广告人的新品牌观

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This article is published in Chinese and English. English version is available after Chinese part.

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Prophet的资深合伙人唐锐涛(Tom Doctoroff)(右)

与品牌几何联合创始人尹正国(左)

前言:

上次见到Tom Doctoroff,已经是千禧年。那时我在联合利华任品牌经理,而Tom带领着智威汤逊团队在中国市场大展身手,服务包括联合利华在内的客户。这次见到Tom,他已经辞去智威汤逊亚太区CEO(隶属WPP集团)一年多,现在作为高级合伙人加入了品牌战略鼻祖David Aaker麾下的铂慧Prophet。这次专访是在铂慧Prophet 发布中国市场的品牌相关指数之际完成,我们来一览唐锐涛的品牌新观点新视角。

——尹正国

唐锐涛专访:一个老广告人的新品牌观

2017年10月19日,全球知名的品牌战略和市场咨询公司Prophet铂慧发布了中国品牌相关性指数TM(BRI)及品牌50强榜单,评选出当今中国消费者最息息相关的品牌。

 

调查针对30个行业的235个品牌,涵盖了与中国消费者生活起居相关的各个领域,对39个一、二、三线城市中的近13500名消费者进行调查,从而开发出基于消费者的品牌相关性排名。

 

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发布会当天,来自于Prophet的资深合伙人——唐锐涛(Tom Doctoroff)作为主讲人,针对“品牌相关性”,发表了自己看法,在场嘉宾与观众也积极参与互动。

 

在发布会后,受邀前来的正初营销科技创始人尹正国采访到唐锐涛,以本次发布会为契机,谈到关于咨询、广告等行业内十分关注的问题,以下是采访正文。

 

David(以下简称D):您离开中国大概有一年时间了吧?

Tom(以下简称T):是的,我一年前离开的。

 

D:离开中国后,您是否可以从不同的角度更独立地观察中国这个市场?之前您可是一直处于中国市场内部。

T:实际上,这个问题的答案是“不”。离开中国给我的不是关于中国的“新角度”,而是“没有角度”,可说与中国完全脱节。促使我接受Prophet这份工作的重要原因之一是我能回到中国这个市场中,阶段性参与其中。美国人不了解中国,对中国的看法与以前比没有什么本质变化,他们也不打算深入分析中国市场。(相当部分)美国人把中国看作一个冒着黑烟的大怪物——它正在崛起,但他们并不真正理解其原因,包括不理解它的外在表现、内在核心和文化根源。

 

D:谈回到您的新工作,您喜欢它吗?

T:我当然喜欢它。(过于正式的语调)

 

D:哈哈,这听起来很像外交辞令…

T:(笑)说到做咨询的好处,咨询的视野比广告更宽广,洞察也更深入。我能够学到一些以前从未了解过的新东西,比方说第四次工业革命,还有接触到一些逐步转变为消费者友好型的新兴经济领域比如健康科技、金融科技等等。与客户讨论的内容高度已远远超过我作为广告人的阶段。

 

D:您能更详细地阐述一下吗?

T:首先,与客户交流的高度是不同的。比如我们经常碰到一些客户,想要从非客户导向企业转变为客户导向的企业。像金融或者医疗服务类这种一贯不怎么了解客户的行业的公司,他们的CEO的这种需求往往特别迫切,因为这个新时代——这个互联网时代——逼着他们要改变。

 

我喜欢目前工作的第二个原因是公司内部的不同技能能够相互融合。我不仅仅是说我们咨询人员,我们的专业人士包括执行、设计、策划、工程等等。通过这群跨度很广的伙伴,我们能够覆盖从战略制定到变为实实在在的行动。

 

第三个原因是对我对品牌的热情,(强调)我对于品牌的真正热情。品牌是个根植于“成长”的概念,而不仅仅是个关乎传播的概念。你可能会觉得很不可思议,作为一家全球性公司,我们只用一张损益表(即一个成本利润中心)。确实很难以置信,我以前从没见过,但我体会到了,实际上这是一场革命,在这样一个公司里,我们就可以随时随地共享资源。如果您来自WPP,您可体会两家公司有多不同。

 

最后一点原因是我认为这是个很重视分析能力的行业——而不仅仅是依靠灵感。广告的核心是灵感。我们也可以把感性的东西做到很强,但中国市场需要的不光是感性鼓动,品牌还要有实实在在的底子。我们是一家全球公司,但我们也必须了解中国市场的特性。

 

D:基于您对中国市场的熟悉度,您觉得之前广告工作积累的经验,比如人脉、市场洞察力、专业知识等,能帮助到您新的工作的最美好的方面是什么?

T:我就是我,我永远不会去做个传统顾问。Prophet雇我来不是叫我做一个传统顾问的,而是作为这个公司、与其他合伙人构建互补关系。如果没有合伙人一起协作,我肯定无法在这个公司做出任何成就。我的人脉也好,对市场的洞察力也好,都是让我成为现在的我的积累,但更重要的是今后我仍然要与和我优势互补的技能不同的人一起工作。

 

D:来谈谈您的“品牌相关性指数”。我知道这是“品牌相关性指数”发布的第二年,那么与去年相比,您在调查设计上有什么变化吗?是什么原因导致了其中的变化?

T:一个主要的变化是我们将研究范围扩大了,增加19个三线城市,涵盖了三线城市,因为这些城市的数据对于我们的大多数调查标的公司的成长具有一定代表性。因为上述原因,受访者的规模从去年的1万多人增加到今年的1万3千人。

 

D:我们看到在对中国市场调查的品牌列表中加入了更多互联网公司,包括像是支付宝、腾讯旗下的微信这样的大品牌。它们的规模已经这么大,您觉得它们为什么还能继续如此快速发展?

T:首先我们明确一下,这两个品牌发展加速的“重心”是不一样的。支付宝功能性更强,而微信更偏社交型。两者所处行业是不同的,但我觉得两者的“规模”是它们飞速发展的共同的重要因素。这两个品牌早已渗入人们的日常生活中,它们拥有比任何公司更多的交互,人们每天都要使用它们好几次,有时候会使用一小时以上。它们对生活方式的改变使它们成为一种“基本需求”,无论它是社交型还是交易型。这和以前相比差别太大了。美国的PayPal等品牌就没法成为No.1,因为美国信用卡更为繁荣。而(中国的这种现象)却是向前迈进的一大步,是前所未有的革命。两个品牌尽管行业不同,但已经都成为人们生活中的情感常驻。

 

D:我们来谈谈苹果公司。去年,苹果在“品牌相关性指数”里排名第27位,但今年飞涨至第5名。您认为这一指数符合其业绩趋向吗?到底发生了什么?

T:我不知道。(笑)老实说,我们得到的数据就是如此。我猜想可能是因为本土品牌的规模与其形成的鲜明对比导致的。但我不确定。我倒是觉得苹果需要更加本土化一点。

 

D:网易云音乐去年不在榜单,但今年却排进榜单的前十位。是什么原因在推动其发展?

T:我觉得这个品牌是打社交分享牌的。它创造了一个自由表达的平台。品牌创造的人际连通性——而不仅仅是个性化——让人们能够安全地表达自己,而品牌在为人们提供表达平台的同时也没有失控。

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D:谈到共享经济,在“品牌相关性指数”榜单中有两个共享经济品牌。您对共享经济有什么看法?

T:我认为没有建立附加值逻辑的东西是不持久的。任何单有规模却没有价值的东西都是不持久的。任何类型的共享经济,如果不能对人产生实质帮助,必将走向死亡。所以对我来说,共享经济除非其共享的东西本身是基础需求,否则就无法成为基础经济。

AirBnB(爱彼迎)就不是单纯推共享。它还倡导新体验、倡导对文化的理解、倡导外出探险和发现。它不是共享一次就结束。

Mobike(摩拜单车)从本质来讲是提供方便。但是Mobike如果想继续生存,就一定要持续保持其品牌差异性。品牌来去都很快,脱离了基础需求的共享经济什么都不是。

有句话我要说,每次中国市场上出现某项新技术推动了生活方式的进步,我们固然应该感到高兴,但不要高兴过头。很多报道都说中国的共享经济在推动社会进步,但我们都知道,中国市场一直是实用至上的。

 

D:您认为品牌体验怎样才能带来品牌的成功?

T:这正是我在Prophet学得最多的。品牌体验需要转化为行动。它需要以一种规范的方式来进行创新。品牌即体验,这个是陈词滥调了,但这也是真的。这不是说你不用再去发掘自己的品牌。不是这个意思,你还需要去做品牌定位、品牌目标,但品牌目标应该延伸为一种品牌关系,而这个关系需要比对和映射。品牌映射是我最近学到的东西,它不仅是一种理论,更是一门科学。

 

D:最后一个问题:您对广告在品牌成功方面的作用怎么看?您曾是一名广告人,而今天您就职于Prophet,您有什么经验想要分享给广告人?

T:我一直在说的也是我多次提及的,而且依然坚信的事情,广告本身不仅仅是关于述说(Telling)和推销(Selling),它是关于界定(defining)和沟通(communication)。

品牌关系是双向的。广告必须引导客户从被动曝光转变为主动参与。这两方面都是广告范畴,一方面是是被动消费的,它到今天依然非常重要,因为它定义了我们的品牌主张:而第二方面是(提供主动)参与的平台。这二者互相完善、互为补充。

 

(我强调)广告没有死!但是,老的广告公司集团业务(Holding Company)如WPP等的商业模式已经在遭受严重威胁。这种情况恶化的速度令人惊讶甚至绝望。广告公司集团业务(Holding Company)从未将自己的价值主张向客户阐明,也从未将资源有效利用,以有助于主动和被动沟通。其实,(一家公司内部)不同的人有不同的技能、不同的思考方式,而公司应该激发他们相互合作,但看起来,这样的情况没有发生。

 

这类公司还有一个问题——不透明。既伤害了客户,从而也伤害了广告公司自身,甚至整个行业。

但是,如果以现代的方式重新定义广告,它将会发展的更快,营销也会走的更快。

 

D:非常感谢您的时间,Tom!

-感谢阅读-

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关于 Prophet铂慧

Prophet铂慧是在全球拥有业务的品牌策略及市场咨询顾问公司。凭借独特的洞察力、战略眼光、创意以及想像力,致力协助客户提升品牌价值及发展业务。为国际知名的跨国企业发掘消费者深层次需求,增强品牌相关性,并提供卓越的客户体验,其中包括:Fox Networks, HTC、大都会人寿、友邦保险、伊莱克斯、云顶集团、T-Mobile 、通用电气、瑞银集团、思科、蒂森克虏伯、国泰航空、东亚银行、万豪国际、华为和Oppo等。通过350多位市场营销、创新、数字化、设计方面的专家,帮助客户搭建品牌战略与执行之间的桥梁,创造真正的市场影响力。关注Prophet铂慧的微信和微博:@Prophet铂慧。

 

关于唐锐涛(Tom Doctoroff)

 

唐锐涛,Prophet铂慧高级合伙人

唐锐涛先生是Prophet的资深合伙人。唐锐涛先生研究中国逾20年,是跨地域品牌设计和建设管理方面的领导者。他曾任智威汤逊亚太区首席执行官,该公司是世界最大的全球化营销与传播公司之一。合作伙伴包括联合利华、福特、汇丰银行、美泰和家乐氏等顶级跨国公司,以及新加坡旅游局、尼康、尤妮佳和生力啤酒等亚洲企业。在中国,唐锐涛先生与联想、中国联通、三九医药、伊利乳业、安踏体育用品以及阿里巴巴等本土领先企业均有合作。他是一位备受追捧的演说家,同时也是一位高产的作家。他创作了3本关于消费主义的著作:《亿万市场:洞察中国新兴消费群》(2006年),《中国人要什么》(2012年)以及《推特无法作为一项策略》(2014年)。他频繁作客CNBC、美国全国广播公司、彭博资讯以及美国国家公共电台,同时也经常担任《金融时报》、《彭博商业周刊》、《华尔街日报》以及《纽约时报》的评论员。

图片来源于Prophet公司及网络

INTERVIEW:

A Refreshed Brand Perspective

by

Tom Doctoroff

Introduction:

The last chance I met Tom was in year 2000. At that time, I was the brand manager as client and Tom led JWT team for business expansion in China. This time when we met again, Tom already left JWT from the position of Asia CEO one year ago, and he joined Prophet as Senior Partner . We arranged this interview when Tom came to Shanghai to publish the China market’s Brand Relevance Index, contributed by Prophet. Let’s deep dive Tom’s refreshed views.

——David Yin

David:When did you leave China? I think it’s been a year.

Tom:Yes, it was one year ago.

 

D:You were able to leave China and observe this market from a different angle, weren’t you? Before that, you had always been in this country and deep in the center of the market.

T:The answer to this question is actually “no”. When you leave China, instead of having any particular angles, you lose touch of it. One of the reasons why I like this job at Prophet is that it enables me to come back, and I can stay here temporarily. Americans don’t understand China, and their views of China have not evolved significantly. It’s not very likely that people are analyzing China on a deep level. Americans view China as a big black smoke monster – it is rising, but they don’t understand it at all. They don’t understand its shape, essence or roots.

 

D:Back to your new job, how do you like it?

T:Of course I like it. (in a too formal tone)

 

D:Aha, sounds very diplomatic…

T:(Laughing) Speaking of the benefits of consulting, the view of consulting is much broader and much deeper than advertising. I am learning so many things I have never learned about before, such as the forth industrial revolution, different sectors of economy that have become consumer-friendly like health-tech, fin-tech, etc. The elevation of our discussion with clients is much higher than when I was an advertiser.

 

D:Can you elaborate more?

T:First, the elevation is different. In general, we come across clients who are making a shift from non-customer-driven to customer-driven. In certain industries like finance or health care which are not used to understanding customers so well, their CEOs may have the new obsession of having a customer driven organization because the new digital world demands it.

 

The 2nd reason why I like the current job is because of the combination of skills we have in house. It’s not just consultants, but also executors, designers, strategists and engineers. With all these people we can turn our strategy into something real in the market and provide very dynamic group of people.

 

The 3rd reason is my passion for brands…(emphasize) the real passion for brands. Brands are about growth, not just communication. I know it might sound stupid that as a global company we only have one P&L (profit & loss), but that’s actually a revolution. In this company we can share resource from anywhere in the world at any time. That’s unbelievable. I have never seen anything like this before. If you come from WPP, you can see how different we are.

 

What I want to say last about why I like it is that it’s very analytic. It is not only about inspiration. Advertising is all about inspiration. I think we can also do a strong job of inspiration, but China market needs things both inspiring and concrete. We are a part of a global organization but we also know the specialty of China.

 

D:You are so familiar with China market, so what’s the most beautiful thing you can think of to leverage your previous job in advertising such as your network, market insight, expertise etc.?

T:I am who I am, and I will never be a traditional consultant. Prophet didn’t hire me as a traditional consultant, but as complement for the company and for my partners here. I would never be anything without partners in this organization. I do have my network, or my insight of the market, but that’s what has made me, and I still need to work with people who are different from me and can complement with each other.

 

D:Let’s talk about your brand relevance index. I know this is the 2nd year you run such an index, so what kind of change have you made in the consumer survey compared with last year? And why?

T:One major change is that we expanded our research to 19 tier-3 cities, as those cities represented the growth for a lot of the companies we surveyed. Thus, the size of respondents increased, from around 10 thousand last year to 13 thousand this year.

 

D:We noticed the brand list in China market has more digital flavor, including some giant brands like Alipay and Wechat of Tencent. How, in your point of view, can they still develop so fast?

T:First we need to make it clear that these two brands are in different sectors and their “center of gravity” is different. Alipay is more functional while WeChat is more social. They are not the same. But I do believe their size is what’s important. These brands are with people in everyday life, and thus have more network than anyone. People use them several times a day, and sometimes for one hour or more. The way they represent lifestyle makes them fundamental, regardless it’s social or transactional. The difference between now and before is dramatic. Think about the US, you can never see brands like PayPal to become No.1, because we have credit cards. This is a giant step forward, an unprecedented revolution. People are emotionally connected to these two brands despite they belong to different sectors.

 

D:Let’s talk about Apple. Last year, Apple ranked 27th while this year it rose to No. 5. Do you believe the brand relevance index reflects their business performance? What happened?

T:I DON’T KNOW. (Laughing) Honestly, the data is the data. Maybe this is because the scale of the local brands made a vivid contrast. But I still don’t know. I actually feel Apple needs to localize more.

 

D:Netease Cloud Music was not in the list last year, but it is among top 10 this year. Any reason for that?

T:I feel that one is about social sharing. They established a platform so people can express themselves. The connectivity of the brand – not just the personalization but the connectivity – can enable people express themselves safely. There were also campaigns in subway with comments as posters in the trains. The brand gave people a platform to express without losing control.

 

D:Talking about the sharing economy, in Prophet’s brand relevance index, two brands listed. What’s your view of sharing economy?

T:I think that anything without value-add proposition is not sustainable. Anything that has scale without value cannot be sustainable. Any type of sharing, if it doesn’t mean something to people, are going to die. So to me, the sharing economy is not fundamental unless what’s been shared is fundamental.

AirBnB is not about sharing only. It is about new experience, about part of the culture, about going outside and about discovery. It’s not about sharing only once.

Mobike is basically about convenience. But Mobike will have to continue being differentiated to survive. Brands can come and go. Sharing is nothing without fundamental things being shared.

I will say one more thing here. Anytime there appears a piece of technology that’s making progress in life in China market, we should be delighted but not over-excited. There are some reports saying the sharing economy is making real progress in the society, but you know, the Chinese market is pragmatic after all.

D:How do you think can brand experience leads to brand success?

T:That’s what I have learned the most at Prophet. Brand experience needs to be transformed into real actions. It needs to be innovated in a very disciplined way. It’s a cliché to say brand is experience, but it’s true. It doesn’t mean you don’t need to dig deeper in your brand. No, you still need to do positioning or find a purpose for your brand, but the purpose should be extended as a relationship, and the relationship needs to be mapped. Mapping is what I’ve been learning a lot recently. It’s not just a philosophy but a discipline.

D:Last question: what’s your view of ad impact to brand success? You were an advertiser. Today, you are in Prophet. So if you have some words or comments to people in advertising, what would you say?

T:I have been saying the same thing for a long time and I still believe it. Advertising is not only about telling and selling. It is also about defining and communicating.

 

A brand relationship is two-way. Advertising has to transform from passive exposure to active participation. There are two types of advertisements, one is passively consumed, and that is still very important because it defines our brand proposition; the other is (to provide )participation platforms. They are both advertising, and they complement each other.

 

So, ADVERTISING IS NOT DEAD AT ALL. But, the model of the holding companies, WPP and others, are under sever threats. And I am surprised at the speed with which the situation becomes very desperate. The holding companies have never defined their value proposition to the clients. The never deployed their assets in a way that help with the combination of active and passive communication engagement. There are different people with different skills that think in different ways. They should be motivated to collaborate, but that never happens.

 

I would say there is one more problem about the holding companies – it’s not transparent. This hurts the clients, the holding companies themselves and the entire industry.

 

But advertising, if you define it in a modern way, is relevant than ever it was, and marketing goes fast.

 

D:Many thanks for your time, Tom!

-End-

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Prophet

Prophet is a global brand strategy and markets consultancy corporation. With our unique insight, strategic vision, creativity and imagination, we  are committed to helping our customers enhance their brand value and  develope their business. We are discovering the deep-seated needs of consumers for lots of world-famous transnational corporations, improving brand relevance and providing excellent  customer experience, including: Fox Networks, HTC, Metropolitan Life,  AIA, Electrolux, Genting Group, T- Mobile, General Electric, UBS, Cisco, ThyssenKrupp, Cathay Pacific Airways Limited, Bank of East Asia, Marriott International, Huawei, Oppo etc. We  have more than 350 marketing, innovation, digital, design experts to help customers build bridge between brand strategy and execution and create genuine market influence.

Tom Doctoroff – Senior Partner, Prophet

 

Tom Doctoroff is a senior partner at Prophet. Based in China for more than 20 years, he is a leading expert in the cross-border management of brand architecture and brand building.

 

Tom was formerly CEO of J. Walter Thompson Asia Pacific, one of the world’s largest global marketing and communications companies. He has worked with top multinational corporations such as Unilever, Ford, HSBC, Ford, Mattel and Kellogg and Asian companies including Singapore Tourism Board, Nikon, Unicharm and San Miguel. In China, Tom has partnered with leading local enterprises including Lenovo, China Unicom, 999 pharmaceuticals, Yili dairy, Anta sporting apparel and Alibaba.

 

He is a sought after speaker and a prolific writer, authoring 3 books on consumerism: “Billions: Selling to the New Chinese Consumer” (2006), “What Chinese Want” (2012), and “Twitter is Not a Strategy” (2014). He is a frequent commentator on CNBC, NBC, Bloomberg and National Public Radio, as well as the Financial Times, Bloomberg BusinessWeek, The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times.

 文 ✎ 尹正国 David 

 来源 ✎ 正初营销科技 

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